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Author:  lurker
E-mail:  lurker@lurker.com
Date:  7/30/2004 4:54:00 AM
Subject:  yosifun and kefira
Message:  it's been a long time since I looked at sefer yosifun, but many people just view it as a take off of josephus to fit in with "frum" sensibilities. But if you want to accept it as fact, I have no problem with that, the gemara quotes Ben Sira, even though it is a book of the Apochrypha. However, I seem to recall Yosifun's chronology of megillat esther to be very different than seder olam rabba's / gemara (for instance the 2nd bayis was already built (so all the medrashim of 70 years don't work). I think there's a rashi somewhere that says something along the lines of this in regards to the chronology "X, but in Sefer Yosifun Y" (where X is the standard seder olam rabba based chronology and Y is Sefer Yosifun's different chronology). But as I said, it's been a long time since I looked at this inside. If my memory serves me correct and this is what sefer yosifun says, which chronology do you believe to be true?

On the subject of kefira. You of all people shouldn't be calling that website kefira. When I read what Rav Wosner wrote about your father in his teshuva against the silk screen sefer torahs, "....all with the approval of a rav (i.e. Rav Abadi) who has a record of breaking accepted rulings, guidelines and our mesora in matters related to the sanctity of the home....and other unimaginative arguments. May heaven protect us from this man's opinion". furthemore he says "How they (i.e. Rav Abadi) have perverted the facts in denying the known truth!" and he goes on "this is a mockery, debasement of the torah" and "there is is no reater case of a mitzva ha'baa b'aveira greater than this"   "it's a fulfilment of the phrase he who sins and then blesses hashem provokes hashem" "know there is no safek that since yeravam's sin there has never been a greater michsol for the masses 'norah v'ayom' greater than this. This is 70 times worse than what Yeravam did" and Rav Wosner goes on and says "on this personand those like him it was said "cursed be he who deceives the blind. Cursed be he who smites his friends in secret"

when I read all that I was disgusted as Rav Wosner was basically calling your father a Kofer. However, it seems that instead of learning, you go ahead and call someone else a kofer, a person I know to be a tremendous yirat shamayim with very little bad to say about anyone.

with all the divisvness in our world today, I can't imagine how we will ever deserve to have the bais hamikdash, that was destroyed because of sinas chinam, be rebuilt.
Reply:  The person is not an Apikores, but we all must be very careful. We have developed a western liberal attitude where anything you want to say or feel is OK.

If a Mishnah says something, we trust them We take it for granted. The people were insinuating that the Mishnah was not conveying accurate information. That is the beginning of Kefira. Then we can begin questioning its accuracy elsewhere and before you know it we can throw the whole Torah out the window.

Our Torah comes to us through Mesorah, which is the passing down through the generations. The Ramba"m or the Ri"f would not dare question the validity of a date given by the Mishnah, to suggest that maybe the Mishnah was just throwing it off the cuff. Even an Amorah from the Tamud wouldn't go there. But we are encouraged to be thinkers, trust our own instincts, and so on. Yes, that is a good thing, but don't lose the brains. Your brains should be able to remind you that some things are fact. They are undisputable. When the sun is out and it is light outside, it is DAY. No dispute there. Sorry, you thinkers, let that one be. The same goes for facts written in a Mishnah that is not contested by another Mishneh or Braita.

The Mishneh in Taanit says the following 5 things happened on Tisha Be'av. As far as we are all concerned, those 5 things happened on Tisha Be'Av. Case Dismissed! Nothing to discuss.

This idea that we can now suggest that maybe they just said it in order to designate one day of mourning, but maybe it didn't happen on Tisha Be'Av. Look even the Talmud doesn't explain how it knows that the second Temple was destroyed on Tisha Be'Av. This is Kefira.

We can approach the issue a bit differently. We can say, the Mishneh says 5 things happened on Tisha Be'Av. Fine, we accept that. Now how did the Mishneh know these 5 facts." Maybe we can figure that out, or maybe not, but the facts still remain.


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