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Author:  Daniel
E-mail:  not available
Date:  2/2/2005 11:18:00 PM
Subject:  huqoth ha goyim reply
Message:  In the Torah it says that you must wear a Kippah. It says "you should listen to your Rabbis decrees."

That statement shows your ignorance again. The torah says that we must not go by the huqoth ha goyim (wvhuqotheyhem lo thelekhu), which means, among other things, that we are required to look like Jews (See Rambam Aboda Zara Chapter 12). We can accomplish that by wearing kippoth, but never did a legitimate Sanhedrin decree that we must wear kippoth. It is certainly recommendable to do so, but you can also comply with this requirement by wearing your tzitzioth outside or wearing tefilin all day, which is what most of us try to do (at least the shel yad). You do not have to repply to this message, but please correct your conceptual error.

“Reply: You are absolutely wrong. Rav Moshe Feinstein has a whole Teshuva on that. He explains that the concept of being different than the non-Jews in clothing, names, and language does not apply today. In Egypt before the Jews were freed it was a very important part of their existence, because they had no commandments yet. This was the only thing that separated the Jews from the non-Jews. Nowadays since we got 613 + laws, we are not required to dress differently.”

This is really surprising. I thought that among our "613 + laws" was the Torah negative commandement on Huqoth Ha Goyim. This negative commandment is listed in Sefer Ha Miswoth as Miswath Lo Taase 30. Also, see RMBM on this at http://kodesh.snunit.k12.il/i/1411.htm You only have to read the first halacha to see that this within this negative miswa is also the requirement to be "muvdal" in the way we dress.

As to the issue of the midrash on Jews keeping their identity in Egypt because of their different dress, I did NOT cite that midrash in my argument since it is not an halacha. So you are completely off topic again. Moshe Feinstein was referring to that midrash in his teshuva, but what I am talking about is the torah requirement to look like a Jew. We all agree there isn't such a thing today as a Jewish piece of clothing (except for the talith gathol), but we are still required to be distinguishable ("muvdal") from the rest of the world even if we wear jeans.

“The Kippah is not to look different. The Kippah is a reminder of God being above us and a way to remain humble before him.”

As I said before, one way to look different is to wear a kippa, but you can also accomplish that by wearing tzitzoth or tefilin. The idea of remaining humble also applies to any respectable head covering, not only the kippa since HZL do not talk about kippoth. But technically only a talmid hachamim is required to wear a head covering all the time (See hilkhot de'ot chapter 5, halacha 10 at http://kodesh.snunit.k12.il/i/1205.htm ).

“Chukot Ha'Akum (Ways of the non-Jews) laws are only in areas of Pritzut or Avodah Zarah Related.”

The fact that you refer to Huqoth Ha Goyim as “Chukot Ha'Akum” shows me that you have been using the corrupted and censored editions of the Gemara and the Mishne Torah in your studies. And, as I said before, RMBM explains that these laws apply to clothing (“malbusho”) and actions (“ma’asaw”).

“In summation, you need to really work on yourself. You show how you have not learned much yet you talk like a real arrogant Yeshiva guy. ‘That statement shows your ignorance again’ How dare you talk like that. You should be embarassed. Look it up in Shulchan Aruch. Read up on it a bit. You will find that what I am saying is true and your way of distorting the laws are totally off mark. Here's your chance to wake up and come back to your God. Learn to curb your arrogance and cut down your ego a bit. AA”

I have an answer to all of that, but I prefer to concentrate on the subject matter, which is whether as you said “our rabbis decreed” that we must wear kippoth or not. I do not like to go into personal attacks. The main issue in this and in all of my previous posts, many of which you did not have the guts to answer, is whether we are bound by the “decrees” of post-Sanhedrin rabbis who, no matter how wise they can be, do not have the legitimate authority to legislate on matters of Jewish law or to institute new customs.
In your initial post, you said or clearly implied that there is a requirement or miswa derabanan to wear kippoth by citing the torah commandment that gives the Sanhedrin Rabbis the right to legislate and to institute new customs. Please show me where and when they instituted such a requirement so I can see that they did so with kippoth just like they instituted Hanukah and Miqra Ha Megilah among other things. I want to believe that you are not among those that think that the commandment “al pi ha torah asher yorukha” gives post-Sanhedrin rabbis the authority make decrees on matters of Jewish Law. This will be my last post here unless you ever have the guts to honestly answer to this post and to the post entitled “giluah” without diverting to personal attacks in order to avoid dealing with the real issue in question, as you often do. It is my responsibility as a Jew to do tochaHa on anyone that is misleading the masses.

Reply:  "It is my responsibility as a Jew to do tochaHa on anyone that is misleading the masses."

You are high and mighty! You refer to Rabbi Moshe Feinstien as Moshe Feinstien. God is thrilled with your service to his cause. Find another site to annoy. You clearly did not look into the halachah completely. You are enterring your research specicifically looking to justify your way of life. If you were honest and open-minded you would have real quickly found the dozens that say what you disagree with. You cannot learn Torah closed-minded.

You are surprised by my explanation of Huqoth Ha Goyim. Did you look into it? Look at Tur Shulchan Aruch on Huqoth Ha Goyim and especially the Beit Yosef. He says and it is all agreed that the only time something is a problem of Huqoth Ha Goyim is if a person wears something that non-Jews wear as a sign of Pritzut (immodesty) or related to idol worship, but not just a dress code. That is not based in these laws. Sorry, the Kippah is not from Huqoth Ha Goyim. Do yourself a favor and open the books, read a little. You are so busy with your Tochachah.....

In regards to the requirement to wear a Kippah, it says in Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim #2:6 You should not walk 4 Amot with your head uncovered. Did you even look there?

The Magen Avraham explains that the law requires that, however as a Chassidut, many Rabbis would be stricter and not even walk less than that without a covering.

The Mahari"t Sahalon has several pages written on this issue. Why not look at it.

And then go get help. Do you really believe that your intentions are pure? Come on, it is just us here. Be honest.

PS I am glad that finally this was your last post

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